SPEAKER_02 0:19

Hey, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Uh I'm great. Doing great. Just uh beebopping. I just went and saw Verity with the movie. Oh yeah. He's good. Yeah. It was creepy. I forgot how creepy that storybook is.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Like a thriller horror video. Oh Hyundai.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Yeah. But it was very good actors and actresses. It was just all around very, very good. Very high quality.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Alright.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

So.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Well, I'm gonna stick to watching to getting my Dakota fix. I'm just gonna stick to watching the Patient Zero music video over and over and over again.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Okay. I don't even know what that means.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

It's Taylor Swift's new music video.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

No, I I mean I did know what it meant, but I didn't know. I had no idea that she had released anything.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Oh yeah. Four new songs. There's more coming. I bet you money. There's more coming. There's always more coming. There's always more coming. What are you talking about? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Okay. Well, that just segues really nicely into not this.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Okay. I got excited. Is this about Taylor's lift?

SPEAKER_00 1:16

It is relevant. Okay. And you'll see why in a minute. So today I want to talk to you about something near and dear to both of us. Okay. Near and dear to our hearts. The science of laboratory testing. All right. We love that. The blood of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Yeah, the blood of it, the stool of it, the urine.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

The stool of it, yeah, all of that. So, friends, let's start with the sample. Because if you don't start with a good sample, what what are you even doing? Yeah. You're just going to get shit results. So, as you may or may not know about Ashley and I, we are laboratory scientists.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

We are.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

That is a microscope tattoo, even.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Yeah. I don't have one. She does them.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

You should get one. Maybe that's what the cool kids are doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Um, but I'm not sure. Uh well, I'm not sure how much our listeners know about the whole process. So we're just gonna do uh like a little quick, yeah, a little quick like over overcap. Yeah, not overcap.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Summarization? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Um, but I'm sure most of our listeners have had their blood drawn, but they just don't realize how important every single step is to make sure those results are accurate.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Or even who does the testing at all. Correct. We have nobody knows we exist. Nobody knows.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

No, we we don't exist. Um but so let's start at the top. I know. Let's start at this, let's start at the front, phlebotomists. And they play a huge role in everything. So the next time you get your blood draw on, be sure to thank them because even if it hurt a little bit, their job is incredibly important. If if if it's messed up at that level, it's it's trash from there on out. There's no there's no coming back. So before the draw, the phlebotomist will look at what tests you have ordered and determine what type of tubes are needed and how many. And those colored caps, they're not just for fun. They're not they're not a brand for where you're getting your blood drawn. They're not that they mean things. Um, each of those tubes contains specific additives designed for the sp specific type of testing that we're gonna be doing. The color of the cap is a quick way to tell your laboratory scientist, your phlebotomist, your spa your processor what's inside, therefore, what the tube can be used for.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

And what order to draw the tube in. Because that matters too.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Yep. And unfortunately, there is no universal tube that can be used for every single test. So there's not just one magical unicorn tube. And that's why you'll probably see your phlebotomists fill up several different tubes, like a purple, a few yellows. It'll probably be like purple and like yeah, maybe a red top. Maybe a red top, yeah. Yeah. And like you said, those tubes even have to be drawn in a specific order. So we're not just willy-nilly grabbing whatever, but we have to make sure that we're drawing them in the correct order because they're the preservatives inside the additives, they can contaminate the next tube. So we have to be careful in which which ones we draw. Um, some of these additives prevent the blood from clotting, some stop certain chemical processes from continuing, some tubes contain a gel at the very bottom, and then after the blood is like centrifused or spun down, it separates the red cells from the serum or plasma. So they're all just very cool tubes. And to put it into perspective, if you're like, I still don't, I still don't know what the crap you're talking about. One very common tube we have is a sodium citrate. And which means that we should not be using that tube to measure your sodium level. If we already have sodium in the tube when you get your blood drawn, we don't want to run your sodium off of that because we'll just be measuring what's in the tube.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

And then we can kill you.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Probably.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

So, anyways, honestly, writing all of this, I was just like, oh my gosh, are we cool? We're really cool. We're really cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

So phlebotomists, though, that's exactly what I mean. They're having to think of all those things when they're getting rid of it. They're not just having to think about stabbing a stranger, they're also having to think about like the ordinary test, making sure this is the right patient.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

It is really cool. These phlebotomists do a great job. Thank your phlebotomists when you see them. Um, but the point is, there's no magic tube that can do everything. Am I right? There's not one. There's not one that's just like do it. It's always draw a rainbow so that we can get a variety of testing. And when we say draw a rainbow, we mean the caps of like a rainbow color. Um, anyways, once your blood is drawn and properly labeled, because you know we like a good label and processed, it makes its way to a laboratory scientist like Ashley, like myself. Yes. Um, and if you're having like a full panel of testing done, your samples are gonna go to many different departments or benches, as we call them, that specialize in the different types of testing. Because just like there is not one just magical unicorn tube, there isn't just one magical unicorn instrument that can run every test either. Laboratories have all different kinds of instruments designed for different types of testing, they're incredibly sophisticated and they can do remarkable amounts of testing from a relatively small amount of blood, but you still need the right sample, you need the right tube, you need the right instrument, you need the right scientist.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

You also need the right volume in some cases. Some of them require you to have an exact volume of blood in that tube to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

But the process is complicated and it's it's strict, and you gotta make sure it's right. Um the laboratory scientist, when we get our samples, we check it to make sure it looks like a good sample. We perform the testing, we evaluate the results, and then ultimately we send that information back to your doctor. So to recap, again, Ashley, because I know you're confused. You're not confused. There isn't one tube that can do everything.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

No.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

There isn't one instrument that can do everything. There is not. Scientists, our laboratory scientists, they can do everything.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

They can do everything.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Yeah, so that person's cool.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

That person's cool, highly trained.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

It's it's not as simple as putting a tube on a machine and hoping for the best.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

It's a very, it's a very specific like series of steps between the moment your blood leaves your arm to the moment that it gets the laboratory results.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

But this is why, sorry, just to just to break in for a minute. This is why I laugh when people are like, AI is gonna steal our jobs.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

It's like Yeah, right. No. No.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

No, they're not. And I can tell you why.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Yeah. Dare it, do it, I dare you. Yeah. Um, but that's not this whole like right tube, right person, right instrument, right this, right that. There was a uh a certain young woman one day that was like, Nardog, I can do this. I got this. So, in honor of the A24 documentary releasing October 16th, you can see everything. Let's rehash Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos because it's a damn good story. It's a good story. Um, so A24 Studio. I feel like I'm just hearing nothing but A24 lately.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Yeah, they've had like so many good things like Backroom, and that's the only other thing I can think of right now. But like all the good stuff right now.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

All the good, all of the good and if you've got documentaries.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

And if you've seen that meme, so the the documentary is co-directed by Nathan Filder and Lance Oppenheim. And I think the clip that's like going kind of pretty viral all over. What?

SPEAKER_02 8:10

She's staring.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Oh, you I was like, what are what's wrong? Did you not? Did you just have a stroke?

SPEAKER_02 8:15

I'm just staring.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Um, anyways, yeah, that clip that is going viral. I think it has Nathan Filder in it, and they're like staring at each other, and she's like, I would never deceive you.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Yeah. Why would I deceive you?

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Why? But she never blinks.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Never. Because she's a psychopath.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

She's a psycho. But good on her, I guess. No. Okay. So let's let's just rehash it a little bit so that we're all ready for this documentary, because I am ready for it. I am ready for it as well. Elizabeth Holmes, she was born in 1984, so she's just like two years older than me, so kind of cool there.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

And she's pretty young for all of this. Like she did this very young. Like when I was probably, I don't know, watching Glee. She was out there doing all this stuff. Oh my god, I love Glee. I know. Glee was great.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

I love Glee matchups.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Yeah. Um, and I do want to say, I'm not knocking her for being ambitious because she really had a lot of courage and skills and the brains. But like, you gotta be ethical. And she was very unethical.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Also, she probably didn't have a fully developed prefrontal cortex yet.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

She was 19.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

Yeah, there's no, I mean, like, who's letting children do things?

SPEAKER_00 9:22

This story starts when she's 19. So in 2003, at 19, Holmes drops out of Stanford where she was studying chemical engineering. So she was she was studying like a good degree. She knew her.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

She was trying at first.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Yeah, and she started a company originally called Real Time Diagnostics, which then became Theranos, which I oftentimes in my head I'm always like, Thanos? It's not Thanos. Yeah. Theranos. Same thing. Yeah, same thing. So then from 2004, which is when I graduated, to 2008. So I'm just being immature at these times. She is attracting some serious money. Yeah. So she ends up raising millions of dollars and builds Theranos, but it's largely secret. So it's like the new hot secret.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

By design. Um, she recruits scientists, engineers, executives, but all the while she's keeping the technology confidential, or probably doing what most people do, which is like, you know, you only this person only gets to know this part, and this person only gets to know this part. So nobody knows the whole, the whole situation. Um and she was essentially just able to get very prominent people to drink her Kool-Aid, and then those people brought other people in, their other influential and effluent friends, and everybody was like, This is hot, this is new, this is a secret, like say less, I'm in.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Um, and what was the idea she was selling? Instead of taking those multiple vials of blood from a vein and putting them in those cool specialized tubes and sending it through a conventional laboratory equipment through the the lab the proper way, she proposed that they just take a s a small amount of blood from the finger stick and run a huge number of tests quickly and cheaply. Her claim we have this tiny little machine called the Edison. You give us a few drops of blood from a finger prick, so not even a needle in the arm, so just a finger prick, and then we'll give you results for hundreds of tests.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

And it's revolutionary. And it and honestly, like if you said that, people would be like, really? Like that's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

And people were like, What? Yeah, that's amazing. I'd rather have my finger pricked than get my blood drawn.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

But it's like, what do you mean, no array of tubes? What do you mean no giant, you know, several hundreds of thousands of dollar instruments? Like, because these instruments that we're using in the laboratory are so expensive. Oh, yeah. Um, no giant laboratory and sadly, no laboratory scientists.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Yeah, we won't have to staff a bunch of people. We'll just hire, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Just do a little finger poke and put it in this little toaster looking box.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Leads to, I mean, I know you're gonna get there, but it leads to the ignorance of the field in general, what people don't really even grasp. Like, don't be giving your money to some person who can't tell you how any of the science is done.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Yeah. Yep. But really, like, if you if you were to hear that pitch, you would have been like, Yeah, sweet, I'm in. And oh, this this person's in. And like, I think a lot of the reason for her success was that she had enough really high-level people that were like, well, if that person's doing it, they're not gonna lead me astray.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

So you trust your personality. I just need to come up with an idea like this, yeah. And then go to prison.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

Um, but okay, hold on. Prison though, like three square meals a day and time to read? It's not really sounding that bad.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Oh, yeah, but like scary. I mean just a baby.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Maybe screw up one time and then get put in solitary confinement. At this point, oh no.

unknown 12:59

Just kidding.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Let the record be your blown. Christy says no. Ashley is like, take me to jail.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

I'm also in the trenches of toddlerhood.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

So your husband's having a sleepover.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

He's with his boyfriends.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Yeah. Anyways, uh, so here's the problem though. The laboratory reality, gosh, I hate when the reality hits. Yeah. The Edison actually wasn't doing any of that. No. So Theranos had proprietary instruments, which included the Edison, but the company couldn't reliably run the enormous menu of tests it claimed using tiny finger stick samples on its own technology. So in practice, Theranos was actually doing something much less sexy. They would take the tiny blood sample, dilute it with other stuff, run it on a conventional laboratory analyzer, somehow turn that into revolutionary Edison results and story. And for many of the tests, they literally were just running it on commercially available instruments. Yep. So, like, oh don't look over here.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

We're doing this. Like label, like what's the documentary about this? Or not the documentary, the Bad Blood? No, no, no, no, no. The Hulu show that was about this.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

I'll find it. It was called The Dropout. Oh yes. Super good with what's her face? Uh I know it as Elizabeth Holm.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Super good. She's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

So basically, this machine wasn't even revolutionizing anything. Sometimes it was just um stand right here, and then nearby we're gonna run your tests, and then oh my gosh, look what the Edison popped out.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Yeah. You know what? That pissed me off more because getting your finger pricked is so much worse than getting your blood drawn.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

I know people are afraid of needles, but you have so many more nerve endings right there, and it freaking hurts.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Well, and the Edison was really given the vibe of I didn't do anything for the group project, but I'm still putting my name on it. I was there.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

I was like around.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

I'm I'm pretty sure. Like I had a major part in this assembly there. But here's the big problem. I mean, there's a million problems. But another big problem is blood isn't just blood. Like I mentioned before, different tests have different tube requirements. And the reason for the different tube requirements is because the specimen that comes from that tube differs based on what's inside of it, based on did we spin it, did we not spin it? And like you may need serum or plasma or whole blood or you know, the different anticoagulants, you mentioned specific volumes, like to make sure that the ratios are correct and different storage conditions. So when you take that tiny little finger stick sample of blood that just like comes off of your like dirty ass finger, I mean they probably like wiped it, but it's still just like, but you're still you're getting like all the tissue juices in that, that which is a problem, which is why we do not like to do finger stick draws. Yep. Um, anyways, and then you dilute it, so you're adding something to it. Um, you know, probably like saline. No, not wouldn't be saline because saline is salt in it, but um like DI water.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Yeah, DI.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

You're just changing the sample too much, and dilution just introduces a whole host of other problems. Um, anyways, and that's the fundamental issue. She was selling the idea that Theranos had solved this massive laboratory problem, which wasn't a problem, and is getting reliable results from the very small samples across a huge menu of tests when the underlying technology couldn't even remotely do what it was being promised. Right. And I do want to make one big distinction here because I don't want to stack like the basic idea of what Theranos, I keep wanting to say Thanos, Theranos was trying to do wasn't completely insane. Because it wasn't. Because think about it. We have those small handhelds that are that are being used right now, and they're used all the time. They're used by the bedside, they're used at community health events, but there's small little tabletop handheld devices where we can poke your finger, do a little tiny bit of blood into a cartridge, stick in an instrument, and we get a result very quickly. But the catch of those is they don't do 200 tests on this little tiny sample. They're specialized. They might do one or two small tests or a small group of related tests, but when did those get introduced in relation to this happening?

SPEAKER_02 17:23

This Theranos stuff.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

So Theranos stuff was like, I don't know, maybe it's like 2008 or something. We definitely had like glucometers, which are like the the bedside glucose machines. We've had those.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

I mean, people can test their own blood sugar.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

So I don't know. But like there's There's a lot of new ones that they're trying to do in all those freestanding ERs.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

Yeah, and they're they're also for a time there, they were trying to get nursing to do all of laboratories work.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Which they can't do everything.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

No.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

We want to poor nurses already have enough to do. They have enough.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Just let them be. Let them go pee. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

So the problem really wasn't that the idea of making laboratory testing smaller and faster, that's real. The problem was basically saying, what if we made just like one tiny machine that could do like damn near everything? Like, yeah, girl, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Trying to ruin my life, probably.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

So back to the story that in 2009, Holmes's boyfriend joins the party. Yay.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Buzzkill.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Go boys. Um, and then in 2010, um, Therano signs an agreement with Walgreens and Safeway, because that's where they want to put these. They want you to get like, you know, come in for come in for some milk and bread, but like, let's run all your labs while we're here. Yeah. Because again, it's a perfect collaboration. So this is this is when the idea starts moving from Silicon Valley startup promising to revolutionize healthcare towards actually testing patients, and that's a problem. Um, in 2013, Theranos and Walgreens open up testing centers in those locations in California and Arizona. And this is a huge moment for the story because now we're not just talking about investors believing the pitch, we're bringing real people into it.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Um real people with real lives, real families, real thinking they're getting real laboratory tests, but really it's like, don't look behind the curtain. Ooh, not good to see over here.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Um, Theranos reportedly value was valued at about $9 billion, and Holmes just became this Silicon Valley celebrity, and she lands on magazines and high-profile lists because she's just this 30-year-old, and she adopted weird style and voice. I heard it was to mimic Steve Jobs. Yeah. So like a black turtleneck, and she got this deep voice, bright red lipstick. Yeah. Um, and she has, you know, celebrities, not celebrities, but like high-profile people on her board. She has Walgreens, she has, you know, high valuations. This whole thing is looking so legit. But the scientists were like, girl, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Girl, can you can you not?

SPEAKER_00 19:59

And Silicon Valley is like, where does Raptink diagnostic testing? And the lab's like, great, what specimen are we using? And they're like, We're democratizing healthcare. Cool. Do you have that assay validation? Our proprietary technology will change the world. What instrument are you using?

SPEAKER_02 20:21

And then the nerds are ruining the day for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

We're using the Edison, and they're like, that still doesn't answer my question. So thankfully, in 2015, there are some people, some laboratory scientists, uh Tyler Schultz and Erica Chung, who started raising concerns about the accuracy of these testing and you know what Theranos was doing behind the scenes. And they leaked that information to the Wall Street Journal who started investigating, and eventually it blew it up and and the the curtain fell and everybody was exposed. Yeah. Um but thankfully a Wall Street Journal reporter, John Carriot, began the investigation and blew it up, and then the FDA and CMS became involved, which guys, where were you guys? Yeah, you guys.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

Hello. You're supposed to be involved, especially with Blame.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Yeah. You guys. Yeah. So regulators step in and they're like, oh no, these are not good laboratory practices. And Walgreens cut ties with Theranos, and you know, have to be like, just kidding on those lab results. Not good.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Just kidding.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

And then the FDA was like, hey, Elizabeth, you can't own or operate in a lab for two years.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Two years? That's it?

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Two years.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

And then I'm shocked that it was only two years.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Well, yeah, and that was like in 2016. Then in 2018, the SEC charges Holmes and boyfriend with massive fraud. Because like I think they just initially went in and they're like, hey, get out of here. Get out of here, you girl, what you doing? Get out.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

And then as they continued to like pull the string and unravel everything, they were like, uh oh, massive fraud. You're in trouble. And you know, it wasn't that we had been deceiving the patients. We deceived the investors. Yep. That's who matters.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Follow the money.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Yep. And so Holmes initially settled a case with the SEC without admitting or denying the allegations. Um gave up control of Theranos, paid some fees, said some I would never deceive you. I would never deceive you. Yeah, I know. But then the federal prosecutors came in and they were like, mm-mm. You did a lot of fraud. Yeah. A lot of fraud, babe. A lot of fraud. So, anyways, they were both can her and boyfriend um were charged with like conspiracy to commit fraud, wire fraud, whatever that means. I think it's where you have bad wires. Wires crossed.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

She just that's the old thing, is she just got her wires crossed.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

She couldn't she like just needed to plug, unplug and plug back in. Yes. But yeah, so eventually Theranos is completely shut down, and then her criminal uh trial began in 2021. Um, and it was after some delays because you know the the vid came in and she also got pregnant apparently in that time. The trial lasted about four months.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Wait, hold hold on. What was she incarcerated?

SPEAKER_00 23:27

I don't think so because it was COVID times. I'm pretty sure she was just like home.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

She was like home and promising not to run away. Yeah. Um and she apparently testified, which everybody said was a big mistake, and maybe she got up there. I don't I didn't look into being at a trial.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

She definitely made a big mistake by by like talking on her own path. Yeah. If I was her lawyer, I would be like, girl, shut up. Don't look or talk at anybody ever.

unknown 23:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

So in January 2022, to the surprise of no one, she was found guilty. So for one count of conspiracy to defraud, there are us investors, and three counts of wire fraud. But again, nothing. She got acquitted of the patient-related fraud charges. They were like, mmm, I don't know if she was really trying to deceive those patients. No, she was. She definitely was. She did. Um, anyway, so she got sentenced to 135 months, which is like about 11 years in federal prison.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

There's always a but. Is there a but? You're gonna say a butt.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

No, but do you want to do it too?

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Do I want to do a?

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Like, do you want to go to prison now? Still okay. Not with her.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Um she's a psychopath.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

And then in 2023, she began serving her sentence in the federal prison camp in Bryan, Texas, which has other notoriously famous people. Do you know who?

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Glenne Maxwell.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Uh-huh. And Jen Shaw from It's not Secret Lives. Uh Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Oh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Who's Jen Shaw?

SPEAKER_00 24:56

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

I don't watch reality TV. I'm very sorry.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

I don't watch that reality TV show, but I looked up, I was like, who else is at this place? And then I saw who I was like, oh. Well, because it said like federal prison camp, and I was like, is that sleepaway camp? What are we doing?

SPEAKER_02 25:09

They make crafts.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

They write letters to their moms.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Go in a canoe together. I don't know. But Holmes and boyfriend did get ordered to pay $452 million in restitution to investor victims.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

Oh, good. The investors. I'm so glad they recouped their money. Strapped. Oh, poor babies. Strapped. Get fucked.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

So, anyways, and that's basically where the story sits now. So there you have it. Elizabeth Holmes wanted to revelate revolutionize laboratory testing. And honestly, again, I respect the ambition. I love the hustle. But you gotta do it with some morality and some ethics. And I just wish she would have just respected basic laboratory practices.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

I think that's what's the hardest part for me is that the victims, the actual victims of people who got results that didn't mean anything. Yeah. And like the web of that. Like people don't necessarily think that one sample is related to a person. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I I just I struggle so much with the idea that you could go in as a healthcare professional and not follow the ethics. Like, we all take a an oath of like do no harm. And like, where was that during all of this? Like, I think sure she had a great idea, but like she didn't give a shit about people. No, there was no concern for people.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

She would never deceive you.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Or healthcare, like I struggle. Anyways. And to use healthcare as like a stepping stone for this cool thing, like and to sow distrust in people who make this their life's work and their passion about. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

I'm just jealous that I didn't think of it. Just kidding. I'm I'm not in prison, so jokes on you.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

I would never deceive you.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

I would never.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Why would I deceive you?

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Anyways, that's it. It's not sexy, it's not revolutionary. No, she's the worst. But like, just right sample, right tube, right instrument, right process, and that's it.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Yep. On a fun note, and also remember, kids, hold on.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

There's no magic tube.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

There's no magic tube.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Unless there is, in which case, please call me immediately because I want to I want to get in. I want to be early.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

We did get to hear Erica Chung speak at an event, and it was really awesome. She was incredible. She was so brave. She was brave to really like speak out about this.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

And the other guy I read, whatever his name was, Tyler Schultz, uh, has a prominent grandfather, which I didn't bother to look up who that was because don't care. Um men. But he also, like his grandfather was one of the big investors for it, and he had to be like, Grandpa, things are not what they seem.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

Don't we all have to do that with our grandparents?

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Yeah. Is this AI? That's AI, grandpa. It's a dog tap dancing. Yes, it's AI.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

That cat can't really play piano.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Henry's, I don't have an ending game, but I just am excited for this documentary to come out. So that's all I just need to see.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Yeah. I also hope that she feels all of the karma that she put out.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

I hope she feels that tenfold back to her because she just sits in her gel cell and stares at the wall and is like so happy.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

I'm like, why would I deceive you?

SPEAKER_00 28:33

And people are like, What? Why would I ever deceive you? Why do you have those crazy eyes? Put those away.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

And her lips were weird too.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

They were like very like big and chappy.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Why would I deceive it?

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

Girl, get some chapstick. That's what you should be investing in.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

But again, we respect your hustle. No. Just be better.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

Tell me how you really feel. I do not like this girl. All right. Don't make a bad name for laboratory scientists. There's a lot of hardworking. She's not a laboratory scientist. I know, but like she made it out to seem like she was. There's a lot of hardworking women in this field that bust our asses.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

You just ruined it for all of us.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Exactly. Well, I think it's that time where we say the things we always say.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Well, go ahead and kick us off.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Remember to stay really curious. Like, real curious.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

Stay human.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

And don't let dummy des get you.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

Or the robots win. That vibe.